Duena Blomstrom: 00:15

In today's episode, Ifau and I had a long heart to heart about where our autistic journeys have taken us because we've both worked in the side of things that looks and how happy people are at work for a very long time. In fact, if I is the host of a well known podcast in the HR and and people business space called happier at work, but she is also someone who is passionately intent on understanding the mechanisms behind her neurodiversity and also the way that those type of learnings can be, translated into the corporate life of neurotypical people, in particular, the connection to psychological safety and imposter syndrome, what meaty subjects, which I hope we can touch on in, following podcast. But for today, just listen to Ifa's journey because there's a lot to be, understood and a lot to be taken out of it as a lesson. I hope you enjoy this episode. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to, our new episode discussing the way we survive in the workplace when we are neurospicy.

Duena Blomstrom: 01:24

And I wanted to say hello today and to as you heard in the intro, we have someone that I have hoped to speak to for quite a while now. We've known each other for a few years, and we have both been fighting for a better workplace in general. So, Haya, do you wanna say hi to people and kind of do a small introduction yourself if you like? Yeah. Of course.

Duena Blomstrom: 01:43

Yeah.

Aoife O'Brien: 01:43

Thank you so much for having me, Joanna. My name is Aoife O'Brien, and like probably a lot of people listening here, I was trying to survive in a corporate workspace, and I I left my corporate role in 2018. So I was gonna say that was six years ago. It was actually seven years ago now as we're recording this. So it feels like a lifetime ago that I left there.

Aoife O'Brien: 02:05

But up to then, I had a a pretty successful career for about twenty years doing something I really, really enjoyed. And it got to a point where I just wasn't really enjoying it anymore. So I left there, and I set up my business about a year later while I was also studying for a master's in organizational behavior to understand more about myself and why I wasn't enjoying work. Now that's kind of evolved a little bit over time. And how I came to know about my neurospiciness was I attended an event to support a friend.

Aoife O'Brien: 02:36

She was speaking I think it was during COVID. She was speaking at an event online, and she started talking about the all of these experiences that meant that she was she was, let me think. I think she's a mix. I think she's ADHD, maybe not autism. I think it was just ADHD at that time.

Aoife O'Brien: 02:53

And they were talking about all of these different symptoms is the wrong word, but maybe behavior experiences that people had. The lived experiences that people had. And I found myself kind of nodding along, but not really putting two and two together, not really thinking. And maybe I think it was about a year after that that I started to consider what if I'm like that as well? What if my brain is a little bit different and what if that's the reason that I wasn't enjoying work or what if that's the reason that I feel a little bit different to other people, let's say.

Aoife O'Brien: 03:28

And I started having to look into it, and and I guess here we are. When we first connected, I probably had no idea that that was the case. And likewise for you as well.

Duena Blomstrom: 03:38

I mean, I have I had my first diagnosis was in, in uni, and so I knew I was autistic. I did not know about the ADHD, which evidently makes a big difference. It's only when I landed on AU ADHD that it all made sense, and I had, like, a like, a second burnout Yeah. Realizing it, which is brings me to the question. Did you experience any of that?

Duena Blomstrom: 03:58

Did you feel any of that? I know that a lot of us that have been firmly diagnosed or have worked it out in in our adulthood have this moment of kind of going back and thinking of all the things we didn't have, we didn't know, we didn't go through, and that kind of amounts to this idea of autistic burnout, which is I'm bullish on reminding our our listeners that it is very different than than a general work burnout.

Aoife O'Brien: 04:24

And can you explain a little bit more about what it is? So I understand. Because I've heard people talking about autistic burnout, but I haven't I don't really know

Duena Blomstrom: 04:32

I don't I don't know if the exact definition. I don't know that there is one that is official so far. But I think what what it encompasses is a sense of of loss, a sense of belonging at the same time, because it's at the same time that we kind of understand we are part of this this this tribe of other humans that have went through the same types of experiences. But then kind of looking back over your career and thinking of all the adaptation you didn't have can typically result in people feeling quite unpleasant about about what they've gone through. And it adds to obviously, we are burned out in terms of having worked too hard.

Duena Blomstrom: 05:09

We all are I think even people who are neurotypical have went through, you know, the COVID period of insane work. So, obviously, everyone has a degree of burnout, but the autistic burnout is referring to the realization of of the symptoms and characteristics that you've lived through and kind of what that feels like in the pro.

Aoife O'Brien: 05:29

Yeah. I don't think I have had that, but I'm wondering, you know, I'm thinking back to my experiences at work and the unpleasant experiences I had at work. And not that not that that's related to autistic burnout, but more that I was so annoyed with work, generally speaking, that I I didn't make the connection or that it was just a different experience that I had. Yeah. So, like, I got to a stage where I just I didn't feel like I belonged, and I was in the wrong role, and I wasn't being recognized for what I was contributing.

Aoife O'Brien: 06:03

But there was all of these different things going on, and I couldn't see myself when I left, I couldn't see myself looking for another job. I was like, I can't stay in this kind of environment. Although in other environments, I was really happy. And I think that's kind of what led me down the path that I know that there are environments that create this welcoming, this belonging, this developmental type of approach to work rather than just here, you know, just kinda get on with it. This is what you have to do.

Aoife O'Brien: 06:34

This is what we're paying for you to do. Right. Just get on with it. But but when I started kind of looking into the different types of things that might be going on for me if I was I think I was initially looking at autism. I was like, I think I might be autistic.

Aoife O'Brien: 06:50

And so I went through the process of getting a diagnosis. And so you go through this application, you fill out the details, you can share it with a close family member that would have known you as a child because this is what I understand, that if you're autistic, it's from a young age. It's it's not something you develop over time. It's something that you've always had. So I went through this process and I shared it with my mom as well.

Aoife O'Brien: 07:15

It's quite a vulnerable thing for me to do. So I shared it with my mom and I had to wait them. I think they said in the application, like it would probably take about four months before we can speak to you. Now in the end, it took about six months before I had an appointment. They booked in the appointment, but the overall experience was just a calling because actually in front of me, she had someone else's pile.

Aoife O'Brien: 07:37

And I didn't realize this. I, as we were going through the process, I thought these questions seem quite strange. She seems to be letting me kind of ramble and just talk about whatever, which is not related to what I had put on the form to begin with. I'm not sure why she's asking these questions. And then it got to the part about other people's opinions or, you know, other people's contribution.

Aoife O'Brien: 08:00

I said, no, my mom definitely filled out the the form for me as well. And she was like, no, I don't have anything here from your mom. So she didn't. And I thought that's really odd because she definitely did. And she goes, oh, let me just check something here.

Aoife O'Brien: 08:13

And so she checked and she had the wrong form open the whole time. She had someone else who had filled out the form a week or two prior. I was like a week or two. Are you kidding me? I've been waiting six months for this appointment.

Aoife O'Brien: 08:26

So she went away anyway. She said, give me ten minutes. I'm going to review this and come back. And so we had maybe a ten minute conversation about what I had experienced. And the more I used to talk about it, I can feel a visceral reaction.

Aoife O'Brien: 08:38

Now the more I talk about it, the more annoyed I feel. And that was, that was a good two years ago now that that happened. And I'm still annoyed. And as we mentioned, kind of prerecording, if that doesn't say that I'm autistic, I don't know what does. But the conclusion was not likely to be autistic because because I traveled the world solo and an autistic person couldn't possibly be able to do think, you know, for everything that I've achieved in my life, an autistic person couldn't possibly be able to do that.

Aoife O'Brien: 09:10

Now they did say because they did they kind of included as part of the process an ADHD assessment, which never occurred to me. But the ADHD, she said you're borderline. So she recommended this wasn't sorry. This wasn't an assessment assessment. This is like an introductory call to see whether you should go for a full assessment.

Aoife O'Brien: 09:30

So she recommended on the, on the autism. You don't necessarily need to go for a full assessment because we don't think that you're autistic. And here's the reasons why. And the main thing that I heard was because my mom said that I had traveled the world solo and, you know, just bullshit reasons, basically, as far as I'm concerned. But the ADHD was kind of an eye opener.

Aoife O'Brien: 09:51

And then I thought, you know, and I've been thinking since then, if I have and you'll be able to understand or explain a little bit more about this, maybe I'm presuming, you know, more than I do, but if I have autism and ADHD at the same time, I'm like, do they find it harder

Duena Blomstrom: 10:05

to apply? Interesting. Yeah.

Aoife O'Brien: 10:06

So it's really hard to do test.

Duena Blomstrom: 10:08

Because I think a good AU ADHD diagnosis is very hard to come by simply because specialists haven't thought about

Aoife O'Brien: 10:14

the diagnosis. Okay.

Duena Blomstrom: 10:16

In fact, in many countries, they are such separate things. And in particularly in Europe, in Spain, for instance, there are, that one of them is seen as a symptom that's in the the version of DMS where all the the big illnesses are, and it has a a a number of of characteristics of an actual disability and illness, and the other one is seen as an more of, condition, if you wish. So that is very separate. Because they're separate, they've been taught separately to specialists. So when you do encounter very few that Oh, wow.

Duena Blomstrom: 10:48

Okay. Are able to put it together. And it is a new denomination, really. AUADH didn't really exist until as a theoretical thing until a few years ago. I mean, just a few years ago, we were diagnosing a loss of people as Asperger's, which doesn't even really exist.

Duena Blomstrom: 11:02

It's an insane denomination. So I don't know that the labels are accurate or mean anything. To me, once you're on the spectrum and you know that you're spicy, the way it manifests for you, it's shaped by life experience, by all of these achievements that shouldn't have happened according to the book. I I had the same experience you have. I continuously run into people saying there's no way you're autistic and then kind of deny me any type of adaptation because I've done too well to deserve it.

Duena Blomstrom: 11:30

So it's it's Yeah. It's common. But, but it's also a new diagnosis, so it is entirely possible you're AU ADHD. I think the way you'll be able to think of it yourself and and you are listening is if you feel like you don't completely fit the either of the ADHD profiles and there are several presentations of ADHD, but you feel like you are releasing structure more. You need more of the repetition.

Duena Blomstrom: 11:53

Those are evidently just examples. Your hyperfocus does exist, which counteracts and can't contradict your ADHD tendencies. Then when you kind of feel like there are two two different parts that pull at each other, that's your more complete profile. It's possible that it's AUADA.

Aoife O'Brien: 12:10

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that makes way more sense to me because I can be the ADHD side of things that what I relate to most of the impulsiveness. And I mean that by like shiny object syndrome or getting distracted easily, but I can also go into that hyper focus mode, listening to things on repeat, wanting to eat the same things all the time, having routines, like all of those things that really, really help. I'd love to talk a little bit about masking because I want to understand more about that.

Aoife O'Brien: 12:37

Like whether I've been masking my entire life and I don't know. And I did see someone post something. I must reach out to her actually. I saw someone post something recently on LinkedIn saying that she had recently been diagnosed with AUD, AUDHD. And like, you would just, I think from the outside, you would never know it of anyone.

Aoife O'Brien: 12:55

And I'm seeing a lot more of these diagnoses. And I don't know is it because I'm much more aware

Duena Blomstrom: 13:00

of it. Bias. But also disclose it. Yeah. When I hear

Aoife O'Brien: 13:02

the stats There's a lot more. But when I hear the stats that that say what was it? Like like, let's say it's ten percent. I can't remember the exact numbers, but let's say it's 10%. I'm like, there's way more people in my network than that that that I'm seeing publicly, declaring.

Aoife O'Brien: 13:19

Disclosing. Not declaring. Probably Yeah. Disclosing that they have, ADHD or autism or whatever it might be. It's mostly ADHD, I think, or or AUDHD, But they're sharing about that.

Aoife O'Brien: 13:34

But the reason I'm bringing her up in particular is that even though she she knows about these things and and she works with organizations, she never realized for herself that she was masking the entire time, that she's actually been wearing this mask to conceal how she you know, and the reason I wanted to talk about that is because we probably don't even realize that we're doing it because we've been doing it from such a young age to try and fit in, to try and be accepted that that you don't actually even know that

Duena Blomstrom: 14:07

you're doing it. Mainly as you I'm sure you're aware and if you're all listening to this now, it's why females are much, much harder to diagnose is because we've been so much more adept at masking, to to to be sure we fit in. But, and I think it's a really interesting topic in particular when it comes to the workplace because you and I have spent a long time understanding the the psychology behind the workplace cultures. And one of the the the main dynamics that we've we've tried to understand in your case with imposter syndrome, I was I was thinking of it from the prism of impression management as the opposite of having a psychologically safe culture at work. So we've both kind of really studied that.

Duena Blomstrom: 14:50

But if you stop to think about it, at the base of both imposter syndrome and impression management, it's just masking. And it's if we are masking so that you do not appear vulnerable, so that you do not place yourself in a position that might be problematic for you at work. So I think the way that it manifested to work in particular for those of us that have been so diligent to build a career and keep remaining in the workplace and and the existing corporate environment, then the masking becomes a a topic of survival. And it also becomes so ingrained. And this is part of I should have mentioned it earlier.

Duena Blomstrom: 15:24

That's part of the autistic burnout is when you start to drop those masks and assume your genuine identity and you become authentic, that brings about quite an amount of feelings. And it's a really difficult time. You have to kind of reassess and rearrange. Many people complained that they forgot how to do very basic things. They cannot do the things that they were doing with a mask once they've demasked or once they've dropped that mask.

Duena Blomstrom: 15:48

In particular, because there's actually I don't know the the the exact mechanism, but there's science behind it that explains that we have used the the mask in itself to, to to routinize various behaviors. And once that's removed, you genuinely cannot know how you have to learn again how to behave in some situations. So Yeah. In particular to work, it doesn't surprise me that you felt it so strongly. Those of us that were working in corporate while being autistic have genuinely had to mask a lot more.

Duena Blomstrom: 16:17

And let's face it. Being a woman, being an immigrant, being anything that is not a healthy white male is requiring masks anyways. And the masking for being autistic and all of these things, because that's kind of where the meat of it is, I think, for us is to start understanding intersectionality. Because let's face it, no one is just autistic or just ADHD or just a woman or just an immigrant or just queer. We we all are all of these things in one, and that that kind of exacerbates your your challenge in the workplace.

Duena Blomstrom: 16:49

So how did you experience masking?

Aoife O'Brien: 16:54

Well, that's what I'm that's kind of what I'm wondering that maybe I have been and I haven't unmasked. Yes. That I'm still I'm still masking in some way that, you know, because I haven't experienced that. I haven't experienced the oh my god. Now I have to tell people, and now I've forgotten how to do the routine things that I used to be able to do when I had a mask.

Aoife O'Brien: 17:13

And that's why what makes me so curious about it, about how I show up and and how vulnerable and how authentic I can be, and where is that rooted? Is that rooted in five year old, Efa, who is in school and just wanted to have friends and wanted to fit in with people and didn't want to be different and didn't want to stand out. So I suppose for me, I'm still getting to to grips with that, and it's definitely worth a bit more exploration after after,

Duena Blomstrom: 17:43

this conversation. To hear that. That's very kind of you to say that. But I I think it's it's it's important to to also be as open and honest with yourself as possible, which is difficult, in particular, if you've kind of told yourself you have to have this particular persona. And in our case, I think it's double hard because we are semi public figures or at least people are listening to some of the things we're saying.

Duena Blomstrom: 18:05

So we're trying to be sure that we're on we we are presenting a certain fashion. And there's nothing wrong with attempting to present a certain fashion. Yeah. But there is that what what when it becomes wrong, I think and that's why I said be be as honest as you can is when it it gives you pressure, when you feel like you have to offer a certain image, and that requires a lot of work. That's the a mask that's taxing.

Duena Blomstrom: 18:28

Many people don't even necessarily ever mask because they I either they can't or they'd never get a disclosure or they don't need to. So it's not mandatory they should drop the mask. Some of the masks we're helping are very useful. Yeah. But but equally, like you said, it's incredibly inspiring.

Duena Blomstrom: 18:45

If you've remembered this lady that was talking about masking, she was talking about being diagnosed. Every time we encounter someone who is capable of the masking, it is such a shock and such a such an relatable moment that I think it's absolutely worth figuring it out where where you stand on the mask on the masking topic.

Aoife O'Brien: 19:03

Yeah. Yeah. No. Definitely. I'm definitely gonna look into it.

Aoife O'Brien: 19:07

And just as you were speaking there, like, I've always well, I say always no. Probably in the last twelve years or so, I got really interested in personal development and personal development books in particular. And I read one that was really interesting. I started reading it a few months ago. I finished it over the Christmas holidays and it's called the 15 commitments of conscious leadership.

Aoife O'Brien: 19:31

And the reason I stopped reading it was I read the first one and the first commitment is all about taking responsibility. And so you can be behaving in an above the above the line fashion or a below the line fashion. And below the line is attributing blame. And just as I was reading that, I was like, oh my god. That's that's actually me.

Aoife O'Brien: 19:53

And I can't read any further until I get this one right and then until I start recognizing those kinds of behaviors in myself.

Duena Blomstrom: 19:59

So it's though. Congratulations

Aoife O'Brien: 20:01

for for taking that. That's awesome. Well, all of that to say that I think it's it's all kind of it's all multifaceted, isn't it? There's loads of these different areas. It's all about building awareness of ourselves and acceptance as well.

Aoife O'Brien: 20:16

So it's not just awareness. It's accepting ourselves as we are. It's being able to see ourselves. So like I did, I saw myself and I was like, I'm putting this book down for, yeah. I didn't pick it up until over Christmas.

Aoife O'Brien: 20:28

I was like, okay. I'm gonna continue reading. And there's 15 commitments in total. And the, I think then the nice thing with how they end the book is that it's not about getting it right all of the time. It's about being on a journey and having that understanding and moving towards the way that you want to be, as opposed to staying in the place where you're like, oh, I'm just going to blame everyone.

Aoife O'Brien: 20:52

I'm not going to take responsibility for myself. I'm going to, there's 15 in total. I can't remember them off the top of my head, but it was just, it was solid. And I just thought it was, it was really inspiring, and a really nice way to to kind of think about things and to live whether you're neurospicy or whether you're not neurospicy. But I think particularly relatable as as someone who's speaking neurospicy.

Duena Blomstrom: 21:14

Interesting that I think there's I mean, I don't have a lot of data, but I believe there's there's something to be said about the need for self improvement and the continuous work that that many neurospicy people put in themselves partly because we you know, it it kind of tends to reason we feel so different from the rest of everyone that we attempt to Yeah. Continuously work on ourselves to make ourselves just like neurotypical people. And, obviously, that's not necessarily or something to to aspire to, but it also kind of explains why we've had this mechanism of if we're trying to achieve more and demonstrate that we are equally capable as a Yeah. And and that's why you'll find loads of autistic people that are very high achieving. You're gonna find a lot of ADHD people that have Mhmm.

Duena Blomstrom: 21:59

Gotten themselves out tremendously by being a perfectionist and attempting to get themselves better at every corner. That's kind of all part of the same package. And then, obviously, you have and I I wanna address that. I wanna say that not everyone joyfully acknowledges and embraces their their new identity as neurospicy. And and it's not mandatory that they do, and we have to acknowledge that there's loads and loads of people that are, a, not very happy to find out that they are, on the spectrum.

Duena Blomstrom: 22:27

To them, there's a lot of stigma. There's a lot of fear. There's a lot of, conviction. And then we have to admit that then in the workforce, it is still incredibly dangerous to be disclosing. So in in the sense of if your goal is to maintain your your very hard earned built persona with the math that you need so that you function well in an enterprise, and in today's world where, kind of employment is so hard to come about, in particular for the areas where more autistic people are working such as technology, such as science, and so on, it compounds.

Duena Blomstrom: 23:00

So that that fear keeps people from from distortion, from feeling at ease with discussing these types of of bits and pieces. So the fact that you're working really hard on yourself is amazing. It's unfortunately, for people, not actually that everyone has. And I'm always careful to say that you and I can do that because we are, you know, and of we are the the masters of our own destiny, whereas that's not the case for someone deep in the belly of a corporate entity. So it's much harder for some people.

Aoife O'Brien: 23:28

Yeah. There's I think there's loads to to unpack there. Firstly, I'll say that hit deep when you were saying about the achievement thing and like this drive to improve ourselves and the strive to constantly achieve and how we burn out by doing that. I also wanted to say that I've never experienced actual burnout, but I know when I'm about to get there. I know when I'm about to kind of cross the line, let's say, and that's when I want to do more.

Aoife O'Brien: 23:58

It's like, I want to do more. I wanna keep going. No. There's just this one more thing. I just have to and it's this inner drive to keep going at all costs no matter how tired I feel, no matter, you know, what else is going on.

Aoife O'Brien: 24:09

I just have this inner drive to kind of keep going. And then the third element is around this being in the corporate belly of, can't tell my coworkers who I am or how I am. I'm seeing that start to change a little bit. And it's, it's inspiring to see. And you've inspired me now to, to see if there's someone in my network who is at a quite a senior level within a corporate, organization, but who has been diagnosed as neurospicely later in life, but with a strong career background and now publicly sharing that in the workplace to show that it doesn't mean anything.

Aoife O'Brien: 24:49

It's a it's, you know, it's a label that doesn't have to show it to the bathroom.

Duena Blomstrom: 24:53

We that the people that have that they hear more experiences. And if you look back on over the episodes, most of the people that have come on the show like us have been diagnosed late in life, and they've gone through the same experiences. We think this what you're describing, this sense of achievement and of trying is is common. That said then really quickly not to interrupt you. I would challenge you to look in your network, and anyone listening to this, for, leaders that have that are starting to disclose all of a sudden because, unfortunately, I think we have very few and we need a lot more of those.

Duena Blomstrom: 25:24

I wasn't gonna announce this just yet, but since we're discussing it, we're working on a stickler project, that's that's attempting to to make that visibility a lot easier and a lot more common in inside organizations. People who you do have as employees can break that stigma internally by showing up as leaders and and putting their hands up and saying, in fact, this is me.

Aoife O'Brien: 25:47

This is it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Aoife O'Brien: 25:50

And that's exactly it. And I I think I I mean, I've gotten to the end of my point really. It's really just this inspiration of who are those leaders out there who are talking about this, who are in organizations who haven't experienced the, I don't belong here. I'm not succeeding. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

Aoife O'Brien: 26:05

What's wrong with me? And then leaving the corporate world altogether, especially, and dare we make generalizations here, like women over 40 years old who are late diagnosed as neurodiverse, but they don't realize that when they're still working, they just get to a stage where, like, this is not working for me anymore, and I don't know why it's not working. I'm out of here. And they go

Duena Blomstrom: 26:26

instead of running this mess. A lot of statistics, and this is because, obviously, it's a new conversation for society to have. God knows we should have had it ages ago, but, unfortunately, science wasn't bright enough to diagnose everyone and keep everyone adapted at the same time and whatnot. Because it's a new thing, I think it's it's super interesting to think of it in in the vein of what does it mean for people who are already in the workplace, and what does it mean for people who are entering the workplace and for new generations that we are now building. And I think it's a lot cleaner from that perspective for new people who have you know, there are other challenges.

Duena Blomstrom: 26:59

They need a lot more and different adaptation than people who are already in the workplace. But the experience of people who have already been, like you say, and like we said earlier, masking for a lengthy period of times, finding either either experiencing burnout or, like you well pointed out, finding themselves at the point of of nearly getting there and then employing a gazillion strategies to keep themselves on the brink of it, which is what we many of us have done. So that that experience of an existence in the corporate world that was a lot harder than it should have been, although I'm sure, and I'd like to say it's super hard for for neurotypical people as well to be in organizations simply because organizations these days are very sick, and they need they need a lot of work to be cleaner as a culture. But but it's They're

Aoife O'Brien: 27:44

not a set up for humans.

Duena Blomstrom: 27:45

For people in general, much less that they meant for for neurodiverse people. But I think that trauma, if you wish, workplace trauma that we have went through is massive. And like you like like you've pointed out, the statistics are not there. We don't know. But but feeling wise and empirically, yes.

Duena Blomstrom: 28:01

Second part of one's life when you feel like authenticity is the case. And I don't know if you are listening to this, remember, there was there was this lady, three or four years ago in a in a meme who was talking about, sorry for the French, but this podcast fell out sweating, the fuck she no longer gives. And then there was the biggest one was I don't care about it's over. Like, I don't care what people are wearing on their feet. I'm done.

Duena Blomstrom: 28:26

So as she was going through the facts that are no longer given, that is the the state in which many people have found out that they're autistic, and they that kind of conflated to right, it's it's time to be my authentic self. And you cannot do that in an in a corporate environment. So that's why many people have had to leave. But I would also kind of urge everyone to think of the statistics of how many neurospicy people are solo entrepreneurs, are freelancers, are you would see them now being digital nomads. That's something I'd like us to to to touch on.

Duena Blomstrom: 28:55

And I think forging this different path for themselves has been very necessary for them to kind of keep being performant. But it the the plus of it is that we're going towards an economy where that's going to be extremely more common than it's ever been. So that's the good news for us in what price you'd be for is that it's gonna be the case. But, equally, we cannot leave the the enterprise in a situation where we let's pretend that these people are still experiencing trauma, don't exist, and let's not talk about them. That's not possible.

Duena Blomstrom: 29:23

Every workplace should be smart enough to do something about a better environment for disclosure and people having the safety to talk about it. Yeah.

Aoife O'Brien: 29:34

When I spoke on my podcast, one of my guests from a couple of years ago, like my impression, and this is not neurospicy specific. It's really general toxic workplaces or just shitty workplaces in general. Like, my whole attitude is if there's no one working there, then they're just gonna sink and they're not gonna you know, the company will go under. They have to have people in order to carry out the roles. And, like, how to fix that problem is to get people educate people, show them there's another way and get them the hell out of there.

Aoife O'Brien: 30:04

But the challenge back to me then from my guest was, but if there's no one there, then there's no one there to fix what's going on. What we need to have is advocates in the workplace to fix these things for those people. And taking that attitude and applying it then to neuro spicy. What you need is for people who are neurospicy to stay in those organizations and to not leave and to advocate and to to show what can be done and what can be achieved and what accommodations. And that everyone is bloody different anyway.

Aoife O'Brien: 30:37

So it's not a generalization of, oh, all autistic people need this. It's very unique to each people's individual needs. And I know that, you know, both you and I talk about needs at work as well.

Duena Blomstrom: 30:47

I mean, again, this episode is between two people who are not only neuro spicy, but we have spent ten, fifteen years studying workplace dynamics and try to understand what's broken in the corporate and non corporate world and and what what is under the idea of culture and how do we make good behaviors? How do we create psychologically safe teams? How do we make sure that people are high performing? But having study all that, it was was, for both of us, I suspect a very separate exercise from putting it in context of what type of neuro neurodiverse makeup people would be having at the same time. I think if we are to overlay the two somehow, I don't know how we would divert because I suspect the data's never gonna be there, we would see a lot of commonality between places that are intention and places that are not that healthy, and they don't have a generative workplace culture.

Duena Blomstrom: 31:38

And that will have a correlation with the amount of people that were neurodiverse and and and had to keep it under wraps with the amount of people that were neurodiverse. And there are other implications, actually. We don't have the time for it today. But the more neurodiverse people you have, most likely, you have a lot more acceptance of of canaries in a mind that are actually putting their hands up and saying, well, no. I see something here that's wrong.

Duena Blomstrom: 32:02

So there's there's there's an element of That's

Aoife O'Brien: 32:04

that's that's not right. They're more

Duena Blomstrom: 32:06

like a nurse people. Having a

Aoife O'Brien: 32:07

lot more wisdom flowing

Duena Blomstrom: 32:08

internally and people who do fight for their enterprise. And I think Yeah. It's exceptionally important that that organizations understand that the talent that they have internally, who is already neurodiverse, they should find out which one it is because it is likely to be some of the strongest human element that they have, people that are super invested in their job, people that are super invested in seeing the the bigger picture, in in seeing it work. They're not afraid to put themselves out there. They don't have the same exact attitude to failure that sometimes neurotypical people have.

Duena Blomstrom: 32:39

So I think, you know, there's a lot in the profile of of autistic people that workplaces should be thankful for. And going back to what you said, unfortunately, we are nowhere near having disclosure at the the if you have a board of 10 of 10 people in the board, three or four of them are likely neurospicy, and you don't hear that ever other than this one token deal that's supposed to be their, chief of neurospiciness so that that goes to conferences and says and says it's okay to to be auditing. Yeah. You cannot have that just this one token person and pretend we're all fine because what what is needed is a lot more organized to to then harness this this, this amazing amount of talent that they have

Aoife O'Brien: 33:23

in neurospicy people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, not different to neurotypical as well.

Aoife O'Brien: 33:29

Being able to harness that potential that every single person has. And we could probably talk about this stuff, but I mean, the other thing I wanted to say is that there could be people listening much like I was. I had no idea that I like, it just I'd opened my eyes listening to other people, what they were talking about and the behaviors that they demonstrated and the things that they experienced in their lives. So there's there could be people listening who there may be like, I don't know. That's interesting.

Aoife O'Brien: 33:55

But then questioning, oh, actually, that could be me. So there's there's probably tons and tons of people working and masking and compensating in some way, but they just have no idea that that their range of And

Duena Blomstrom: 34:07

it I say this a lot. It's people are are are not seeing the value in disclosing. When when the when the fear and the risk is so great, it doesn't feel like there's any point in doing so. Even if they know in their heart of heart while they're doomscrolling, yeah, this this is about me. This is me.

Duena Blomstrom: 34:24

This is me. But they and then they don't see the value because that would just bring about problems. But I say this a lot. Admitting to yourself that you are neurodiverse when you are neurodiverse is one of the biggest acts of self care you can ever do because it does change your life perspective. It is it is transformational in a way that's hard to put into words unless you experience it.

Duena Blomstrom: 34:44

Because having this in the back of your mind as compared to having it recognized by your own self and then finding a sense of belonging with other people that are like you is different from from night to day in terms of of capability to go through life. It's not gonna magically do anything. We're not going to all of a sudden be more socially adept or we're not gonna find it easier to deal with rejection. We're not gonna need less justice in the world, but we will find it slightly it it would be a a lot different of a context for for for your soul really to be in once you once you admit it to yourself. And, again, I understand overall disclosure at work.

Duena Blomstrom: 35:22

I would not advise it unless you are a leader, and then you have the the absolute duty to, to start talking about being diverse, I would say.

Aoife O'Brien: 35:32

Yeah. Try to roll out.

Duena Blomstrom: 35:33

Because there's so many people out there that should be listening and understanding that there are there are ways to look at it that are not as restrictive as they've been told. I mean, there are many places on earth where autistic people are not seen as employable. They are not believed to be good candidates for various roles when, in fact, those roles have been filled by autistic people all along. So but we don't talk about it. Just in fairness.

Duena Blomstrom: 35:57

Yeah. It's a big it's a big, big topic, but, I'd like to have you back so that we chat about it some more. I know that there's a lot in your your journey, that that need dissecting. But the the one thing before we we close, I would like you to speak about is how do you find and how what do you think is the connection to being a digital nomad? Is that something that you kind of I know you've chose it intentionally, but do you think fits better with the profile of someone who's near us by the way?

Aoife O'Brien: 36:26

That's a really good question. And it's it's not a connection I have made necessarily previously. And especially when I think it's that the fact that they're telling me I couldn't possibly be autistic because I traveled the world. And now you're saying, is there a connection between these two things? Maybe there is.

Aoife O'Brien: 36:43

I haven't particularly noticed. I haven't analyzed it. You know, I've got quite a bit an an analytical brain. I haven't looked into it in any great detail. But to me, it would also make an awful lot of sense because you're not fitting the standard mold of how we should do work.

Aoife O'Brien: 36:57

It's kind of challenging the status quo. It's getting out of that old boring routine if if that's what people are not anti. I personally, I like having routine and doing the same sort of stuff. That doesn't necessarily mean I want to stay in the same place to do it. So that's kind of my thoughts on I haven't seen a particular

Duena Blomstrom: 37:20

tomorrow, I'll put the the link to your podcast at the end of this video. If you're seeing it on YouTube, if you're only listening to it, search on any podcasting platforms for happy at work, and you're going to kind of listen to a lot of episodes where it's not about neurodiversity, but just kind of the workplace and the way that we are going through this. But a lot of your journey is is, is part of those episodes. So go ahead and and and listen to more, please, because it's it's transformation. And thank you so much for coming over today.

Duena Blomstrom: 37:48

I'd like to have you back again and, that we dissect this situation we've all been through and this this long life of being neurospicy that we've had before us. Thanks again. Fantastic.

Aoife O'Brien: 37:59

Thank you so much. Thank you for such an insightful discussion.